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Talk:Latinum/archive
A suggestion - consider giving this page a slight rewrite and moving it to just "Latinum", then have "Gold pressed latinum" redirect there as well. Alex Peckover 08:38, Jul 21, 2004 (CEST) ---- Did they actually say that Gold is worthless to the Ferengi? If so that's an error, given in the ep "The Last Outpost" the Ferengi called it valuable. I'd like to know the exact line. --TOSrules 23:03, Nov 18, 2004 (CET) :The most significant statement is from "Who Mourns for Morn?", in which Quark explicitly states that gold is the worthless part of gold-pressed latinum (and at the end of the episode he's grossly disappointed when a shipment of bricks turns out to be just gold) I think it's reasonable to assume that in previous episodes when the Ferengi mention "gold" ("The Last Outpost", "Captain's Holiday") they're actually just abbreviating for gold-pressed latinum. -- EtaPiscium 00:05, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::I believe the line was, "And they adorn themselves with gold, a waste of the valuable metal". If gold was valueless in "the Last Outpost" they would have no reason to call it Valuable. Clearly Gold is valuable without the Latinum. --TOSrules 00:47, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :::"Who Mourns for Morn" makes it absolutely clear that gold by itself is worthless. In "The Last Outpost", the Ferengi were referring to a combadge, which is composed of a composite that includes gold in it (see "Time's Arrow"). Since the Ferengi are familiar with advanced technology, it is likely they were just saying "gold" as an abbreviation for the alloy. This is supported by the fact that Riker says "it is gold" in response, when he certainly knows that combadge casings are composed of more than just gold. -- EtaPiscium 00:53, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::::"The Last Outpost" makes it clear gold is valuable, and "Whom Mourns for Morn" Makes it clear gold is not valuable. But their admiration of gold when they first find it out, and the line I quoted clearly say that. He said that wearing gold is a waste of the valuable metal. Your explanation only works if you do not read it with the line. He made NO reference to the other metals. If I thought it was strange for a valuable Diamond to be in a gold ring would I say, "You wear gold, that is a valuable waste of the metal" (or rock). It's as clear as night and day. --TOSrules 02:29, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) :::::What I'm saying is that it IS possible to interpret the line in "The Last Outpost" to mean that gold is not valuable, where it is NOT possible to interpret the events in "Who Mourns for Morn?" to mean that gold is valuable. Their "admiration" for the supposed gold in the combadge would be exactly the same as if the combadge was made of gold-pressed latinum. As for the "waste of the valuable metal", for all we know latinum is a metal (it certainly looks metallic) and that's what they're referring to, or maybe they mean that it's pointless to use gold in combadges when it's better used to suspend latinum with. The point is that the line CAN be interpreted differently, and so there is no need to think that it represents a contradiction. -- EtaPiscium 03:44, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::::::I understand what you are trying to do. Allot of errors can be worked out if you make it out as vague. But there is no mention of Latmum or the other metals in the com badge. You have to take the sentence as a whole, wearing gold is a waist of the valuable metal. There is only one way to read that sentence, (Cap Mike do you agree?). Your explanation has little canon evidence to it, only data's mention of the make up of the com badge which does not apply because they make no note to them. ::::::I'm sorry, but Gold is Valuable in TNG, and valueless in DS9. Ex. (Steal ring with gold in it), They adorn themselves with Steal, a waste of the valuable metal. Even if we had steal pressed gold, that still does not work, because steal would have NOTHING to do with the issue. I think we need others on MA to give there opinion on the issue. --TOSrules 04:31, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) ::::::Let me repeat my first response: the most likely interpretation is that "gold" is a contraction for "gold-pressed latinum", because that's the valuable form, and that's the form it almost always appears in. Maybe the Ferengi didn't know that the combadge wasn't made of gold-pressed latinum, but I think there is definitely room for interpretation. There is evidence that latinum has been used as a currency for centuries (see "Acquisition"), not to mention that it doesn't even make sense for gold to be valuable in an era with replication technology. Also note that in all episodes of TNG where gold is mentioned, Picard never mentions the option of replicating it even when it would've given him an advantage. This either means that for some bizarre reason Federation replicators can't make gold when they can make virtually every other element, or that when the Ferengi say "gold" they mean something else. -- EtaPiscium 04:42, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::::::More canon evidence that "gold" is a contraction for "gold-pressed latinum": In the episode "Acquisition", the Ferengi aboard the ship use "gold" and "latinum" interchangeably throughout. When they're looking for Archer's "vault", they say both lines like "that's where you (Archer) keep your latinum, hmm?" and "I plan to count every bar of that gold myself." Obviously they're referring to gold-pressed latinum when they say either "gold" or "latinum". -- EtaPiscium 05:02, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) :::::::At the core of your argument is that the word gold is a contraction for Gold Pressed Latinum, which only works if they think there is Latinum inside the Communicator. But if this was the case, they would have favored Latinum over gold in the final sentence, "The adorn themselves with Latinum, a waist of the valuable metal.". For sake of argument if we had Steal Pressed Latinum today and you were to say that sentence, "And they adorn themselves with steel, a waste of the valuable metal", it still does not work. You'd name the valuable part, not the valueless part. :::::::Why would they have favored using "they adorn themselves with latinum" over "they adorn themselves with gold" if both "gold" and "latinum" are acceptable contractions for "gold-pressed latinum"? I've already shown an example where the Ferengi use both contractions equally to refer to the same thing. Saying that "you'd name the valuable part, not the valueless part" is a value judgment on their language, which is contradicted by the onscreen evidence anyway. -- EtaPiscium 05:16, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::::::::I've accepted the contraction theory, but think about it, "they adorn themselves with steal, a waste of the valuable metal". Your explanation strains believability, it is a clear cut ERROR. --TOSrules 05:23, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) ::A+. This would make a good footnote. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 03:52, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) ::We've already noted as such, it is an error. But the explanation, and the footnote, will portray that. I don't see what else you are trying to argue. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 06:26, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) :::I meant to direct that to Eta, he still believes that it is not truly an error. --TOSrules 06:35, Nov 19, 2004 (CET) ::::I have inferred from the series looking back that gold is truly worthless, a replicator can recreate it since federation combadges have been said to be replicatable. Gold cannot be made into an alloy it is physically impossible, gold is is a type of "noble" element. except in the case of Gold the outer electron shell is completely empty. It cannot combine with other elements. in other words no Alloys. Gold in electronics provides great conductability hence why the federation or rather any race would use it in their technology. Gold Pressed Latinum: the only reason its gold pressed as it's been said is for ease of trade, latinum itself is liquid. i surmise its pressed with gold is because gold will not combine with other elements. btw i've been doing some math calculations. I have suggested that a bricks worth. 200,000 slips = 2,000 strips = 100 bars = 1 Brick. My reasoning is that when you calculate 2,000 slips, 20 strips, 1 bar. its Odd number, Odd number, Even number 0 is considerd a even number. since nothing can be split evenly so when you keep adding zeros, until you get another ODD ODD Even, which is my previous figure. Its just a suggestion but monetary systems usually have a decernable pattern. Just seeing what other people think --AgentExeider 12:56, May 2, 2006 (CST) Removed from article I've removed this speculation on conversion to modern-day currency: Conversion to modern currency ;How to judge the exchange rate : Probably the best item to use if you want to try and get a currency conversion for latinum is the 189 bars for 2,000 tons of Kohlanese barley. A bulk commodity is always easiest to use for this. While we don't know what Kohlanese barley is, it's probably not too off kilter to equate it to today's barley. Right now (July 2004), a ton of malting-grade barley is sitting around the $150 USD mark. That would make 1 bar = $1587 USD. If you were to think that freight costs were included in that 189 bar for 2000 ton quote, then it's perfectly reasonable to think around the $2000 USD per bar. This makes a very easy conversion: *1 slip = $1 USD *1 strip = $100 USD *1 bar = $2000. *1 brick = $40,000 Exchange rate applied to canon references: This means that other items above cost as follows: ;$10 USD for a case of root beer : Reasonable especially for no-name or bulk ;$500 USD for a military uniform : About the price of a mid-range suit. ;$1700 USD for a tailored dress : Any woman will tell you that you can pay a hell of a lot more for a nice dress ;$10,000 USD for a parcel of land on Bajor : Depending on the size and location, this is reasonable - many city house lots are in this price range. ;$10,000 USD for Nog's life savings : A fairly decent amount for someone of Nog's age ;$1.2mil USD for Quark's life savings : Again, for the life's savings (probably meant to mean as ready-cash) of someone like Quark, this isn't unreasonable. ;$10mil USD for Quark's bar : A profitable bar could be worth that much today. ;$40mil USD for the Lissepian Lottery : Lotteries today range in the 1mil to 100mil range. Effect of technology on prices This is a good guide, but remember, as technology increases, prices skew. Natural resources, genuine food items, and labour-intensive or crafted articles become relatively more expensive, while manufactured goods or highly automated processes become relatively less. So, while a high-end SUV might cost $50,000 USD now, in 400 years when much of the stuff in a personal shuttle is replicated, you might pay a lot less than 25 bars for it. 20 bars to the brick - says who? The page claims that "One brick equals 20 bars". It doesn't reference the claim, and I can't find it in any episode - I did a search of all the scripts for the word "brick", and not one of them mentions an exchange rate. Is this just some wild guess or is it an established fact? -- * Yeah, I agree, I can't seem to find that anywhere either. --Alan del Beccio 16:56, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC) Okay, I've deleted the 1 brick = 20 bars thing. Where do the Federation types get their latinum? A question that's always bugged me. Since the Federation has no money system, how can they obtain latinum? * Trading rations etc with Ferengi, obviously. How is latinum currency authenticated? If latinum as currency is suspended in gold and the latinum itself is never actually seen, why does everybody seem to assume that what is presented as Latinum is authentic? How do they know a latinum "bar" really has latinum in it, and not lead, or water, or caramel nougat? As far as I can tell the question never even comes up, although on one occasion Bashir eats at the Klingon restaurant and pays with a metal object, presumably latinum, which the Klingon host bites (like pirates used to do with doubloons in old movies). The only thing I can think of is the Ferengi hold latinum in such a high regard, almost religiously, that it's literally unthinkable that any of it might be fake. Anyone know more? If there's an answer, it would make a good addition to the article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Maybe it is much like our authentication for bills. Depending on the quality of the fake, the general population wouldn't be able to tell the difference between an authentic 1 dollar bill and a fake. But then again, who would go to the trouble of faking a 1 dollar bill? With increasing technology, the more unsavory elements of society will have to advance as well. There was also the sound that the gold-pressed latinum made. In the episode Who Mourns For Morn?, in the beginning, Quark klinks two strips together. It makes, in his oppinion, a very nice sound. Later, when he is in the cargo container with the bricks, he says to Odo "What you are about to hear is the most beautiful sound in the universe," or something to that effect. When he klinks the bricks together, they make a more thuding sound than the slips. This leads to Quark breaking open all the bricks, finding that the latinum has been extracted. This seems to me that sound would be an authentication procedure. Also, IIRC, when Quark bribed a secritary in the Tower of Comerce, the secritary tapped the slip on the collection box before putting it in his pocket. With the size of Ferengi ears, maybe they can hear the latinum inside the gold when it moves and can determine if it is genuine. My two slips. --- Willie 11:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC) **That's very interesting. I haven't yet seen "Who Mourns For Morn?" but it sounds like it pretty much answers the authentication question. Thanks a lot! Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 16:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)